[00:00:35] Raad Seraj: Chris, welcome. It's been a long time in the making. Thanks for making time.

[00:00:39] Kris Archie: Yes, it has been. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm super delighted to be in conversation with you today.

[00:00:45] Raad Seraj: Amazing. This, we have such, so many things to talk about, and I'm so excited about to cover all the grounds, all the different topics. You know, I first experienced your work and the way you actually facilitate in the community and the way you usher community I think about almost 3 years ago now at at Hollyhock.

[00:01:02] Raad Seraj: And I was enamored. I think like you're, you have such a spectacular story and your style of leadership is just so inspiring. So I'm really happy that you're here. I want to, I think a good place to start is, I think, you know, in my experience, I've heard a lot of leaders in the community from First Nations peoples to other indigenous communities everywhere, you know, state, not only what it is that they do, but how they fit in their own community, which is that really a beautiful framing.

[00:01:25] Raad Seraj: So I, you know, for you I read your bio and it said, you know, Chris Archie is the chief executive officer of the Circle and Philanthropy Circle, but it also said you're a mother, auntie and engaged community member. Now, this is, I think, very specific to, you know, indigenous way of knowing and doing, and it's something that we're going to talk about, but why is stating your relationships explicitly in this way important for you and for the world to know?

[00:01:54] Raad Seraj: What does it say about an indigenous way of knowing?

[00:01:57] Kris Archie: I really love this question. No one's ever asked me that before. I mean, so first and foremost, for me, putting information like that in a bio is, in some ways, it's a demonstration of my resistance to the idea that I am only who I am because of the work I do. I am so much more than the work that I do.

[00:02:17] Kris Archie: And adding in information like the fact that I'm a mother, an auntie, a sister, you know, a community member is indicating that I have accountabilities and relationships that actually have a weight and that bring with me gifts and and I think what that says about Indigenous folks is that, Many folks, you know, I don't want to be like pan indigenous in this, but I think many indigenous folks begin with a sense of orienting who they are with the relationships they hold.

[00:02:50] Kris Archie: Because those relationships come with accountabilities and they come with gifts. And And I think that's, that's why that was important to me was yeah, I, I do work. There's this thing that I do that pays me. But there are these other things that I do that actually bring me so much more joy and pleasure.

[00:03:09] Kris Archie: They bring me a sense of contribution to community and they keep me grounded in what matters. There's nothing more humbling than being a parent and having a kid who's you're just like the biggest dork ever, or are you actually going to wear that outside of the house? You know, there's nothing, there's nothing more exciting than, than being an auntie and like hanging out with nieces and nephews and niblings and just supporting them to be kind of all of who they are in the world.

[00:03:40] Kris Archie: And, and one of our teachings and, and, In so I'm Sikwem Tegelmoh and one of our teachings is that you that you need to be self sufficient. That's how you be, that's how you are a good community member is in your ability to be self sufficient. Can you take care of yourself? Can you feed yourself?

[00:03:58] Kris Archie: Can you keep yourself warm and dressed? Can you get yourself where you need to go? On the land, and then after that, it's then once you do those things, you do them for others and you have a responsibility to pass and transfer that wisdom to others so that we are less Gwen Gwent, right? In our language, kwen kwen means like pitiful, like deeply.

[00:04:18] Kris Archie: The closest you can get in English to this concept is like deeply pitiful. And, and that's like an important teaching of, you know, when I'm going to other places, I am so pitiful. I have no idea like where the, the, the water and the berries are and what kind of animals are going to jump out and get me.

[00:04:36] Kris Archie: So I think there's, there's that piece as well. It's like my naming those is also One of the ways I try and tie back in some of the values I have as a S'kwepem woman to the relationships that I, that I'm fortunate to have.

[00:04:50] Raad Seraj: That's beautiful and such a different way of thinking, right? And as you're talking about why orienting yourself around the relationships that you have, the other roles that you play in your life. You know, you think it was sort of like the. The, the usual professional realm or like Western industrial capitalistic realm, which is sort of like, you know, okay, so this is what I do.

[00:05:11] Raad Seraj: And then, oh, here's the list of values I believe in. I'm like, if you just say what, you know, your father, if you're auntie, if you're engaged, it just tells you the shit you care about, you don't have to just, you know, then say, these are my list of values, you know, like who gives a shit, right? It's

[00:05:28] Kris Archie: I mean I feel like that's, that's the other piece too is like I've never been a fan of, first of all, you know, and I know we'll, we'll connect a bit about kind of formative years, but I am NOT someone with a bunch of credentials. to my name, right? I don't have any degrees. I've never won any awards.

[00:05:45] Kris Archie: I, I'm not on you know, top 50 under 50 list. Like none of those things are, have been part of how I've been in the world in my professional spaces. And so I think that's the other piece is like when I've been asked to write bios, whether it's for work I'm doing or presentations or or for websites or whatever.

[00:06:06] Kris Archie: I never had that list of credentials and letters behind my name. So it gave me a lot of freedom to think about. So who am I and how do I want to be seen in these spaces that are deeply credentialed and have a, a kind of a social norm about how people talk about themselves and present themselves. And they have their like photo and they do the whole thing.

[00:06:31] Kris Archie: And, and, and I'm showing up being like, yeah I think being flippant about it is a part of my desire to kind of pull back my sense of agency and power to be like, yeah, I don't have those things, but I got something that actually, in some ways, I consider to be of higher value. And of, and of a higher, you know, depth than, than some letters behind my name.

[00:06:54] Kris Archie: Cause you know, you don't fuck with moms and aunties. Ha

[00:06:57] Raad Seraj: You certainly don't. You certainly don't. that's a really interesting way of framing it. I hadn't considered that part. I also think you know, if you ask people sincerely and you peel back enough of the layers. And assuming somebody is being authentic, it's really where they're going to go ultimately.

[00:07:15] Raad Seraj: Anyway, you know, I did this exercise last year and I, you know, sort of like looking at my core core values and of course it ranges from you know, the personal to the interpersonal to the macro and so on. But really at the top was family. You know, it was really like, what, what am I scared of? And what do I care about the most?

[00:07:35] Raad Seraj: It's family, right? And so I care about my parents. I cared my, my siblings, my friends, you know, and I think the framing around both accountability, but also a way to capture and be authentic, recapture sort of like how people should see you and then be authentic is really interesting with framing it.

[00:07:52] Kris Archie: You know, even for those folks who may not have a primary value around family, that if they don't have a primary value around family, then they're in the opposite space, which is anything but family. because of perhaps the traumas or the experiences they've had or because of the teachings they've inherited.

[00:08:10] Kris Archie: So it does, I think, to your point, I think it does always come back to to those primary

[00:08:15] Raad Seraj: Relationships. Yeah, I mean, and family, of course, it could be birth family, a chosen family, right? Ultimately, recognizing who it is that you rely on or want to rely on aspirational even, right? Did you always feel, you know, talk about your core values and family and your relationships? Did you always have a clear sense of?

[00:08:34] Raad Seraj: Why that is important to you, your place and position in the community, your sense of identity in your community. Was it always evident to you? And I asked this specifically because I find, and this is not to put every all minorities on, you know, in a, in a, and as I treat them as a monolith or anything like that, and to put them all in the same box.

[00:08:55] Raad Seraj: But generally speaking, in my experience, when you have minorities with fragmented lineages, fragmented heritage, fragmented history and story because of colonialism, because of trauma, whatever that might be, it's very clear. It's actually a very difficult to have that sense of identity from the beginning.

[00:09:11] Raad Seraj: Maybe it's something you grow into because things become clearer. You heal and so on. For you, what was the case?

[00:09:17] Kris Archie: Oh, that's That's a really great question. I think that it's fluctuated over time. You know, I grew up as the eldest daughter to a single mom who made the decision very quickly after I was born to move away from our home reserve into the closest town. And in many ways, because she wanted to create a different kind of an environment and in her, in her Her thinking at the time was like, I want to create a, a sense of safety around my daughter that she didn't necessarily experience as a child herself. so I have all of these like core memories of being surrounded by my by my aunties and my cousins and my kids, like my grannies. And, and, and having a sense of home and a sense of welcome in those spaces. those places on reserve, but also feel really even though I lived like in town, I have always had a clear sense that it doesn't matter if it's not the reserve, this is my territory.

[00:10:21] Kris Archie: These places are my lands. And I have a, a kind of sense of a, you know, clarity about belonging to this place, you know? I think that it that it shows up in how I walk in the world, to be honest. I, I think that I learned, you know, definitely from my mom, like I walk with my head held high with a sense of purpose and a sense of I belong here and I think that was a very unusual thing for people to witness in our town when there were only There's only one other, two other Native families in town at that time and only two other Native families who went to the school in town and you know, and then being biracial, like having a a settler dad meant that You know, I'm lighter skinned than my cousins.

[00:11:10] Kris Archie: You know, so similar to what I've, I've heard in some of your other podcasts, there are many folks who like myself have a sense of unsettled belonging. Like I know I belong and yet why is it that because of how I look or because of the stories of my lineage, I'm treated differently. It's very, I remember feeling really.

[00:11:31] Kris Archie: confusing. You know, I would be in the school and I was bullied really awfully as a child. And then I would go home to the res. And especially when school started, you know, then it was like more difficult for me to feel a sense of connection, belonging to some of my cousins in the kind of broader in the broader community.

[00:11:53] Kris Archie: But I always had a sense of who I belonged to. And and who, who I'm accountable to, and I still do. So I feel really fortunate. I think there are so many Indigenous folks globally who don't have a relationship to their lands and a opportunity to have an unbroken connection to their, to their families and their peoples.

[00:12:12] Kris Archie: And so I, I recognize even though things might've been difficult and, I felt sometimes a sense of being disliked or a sense of being not fully welcomed or a full sense of belonging in these spaces that I was in. I never had a sense that it made me any less of who I am as a woman, right? Like it was just like, no, no, this is, this is who I am and where I belong.

[00:12:38] Kris Archie: So yeah, I, I think one of the things that I am kind of coming to terms with now in my life is, Trying to understand the, the ways in which I've had to kind of code switch or be a kind of play a role in this like knowledge translation between worlds, between worldviews and that there's an ease to it, right?

[00:13:04] Kris Archie: There's like the knowledge translation, there's, There's, it's a skill set, but I have an ease in that space and that can be very helpful when I'm dealing with white folks or when I'm dealing with folks who, who have a curiosity or a desire to understand a little more deeply. But that knowledge translation doesn't necessarily, it's not necessarily seen as a skill set back home.

[00:13:28] Kris Archie: In the community, it's, it's almost like a. Folks can see it as a discomforting thing like we, we don't want a modern interpretation of our ways of caring for children and families to be recorded for legislation. And I'm like, no, no, but like this knowledge translation is deeply essential to the future of our community.

[00:13:53] Kris Archie: And like I wasn't involved in that work, but just as a specific example, where I see folks who play knowledge translation roles between the values that our community has and lives into, into like contemporary society. 

[00:14:08] Raad Seraj: That's a really, actually, it's quite an important thing, a topic to talk about, actually, because I've noticed that even in my community, right? In communities that have been impacted again through traumatic events, right? Through the breaking of history and breaking of lineage, there is, rightfully and understandably a fear of that same force, being exposed to that same force, which, let's be honest, it still exists in the world today, right?

[00:14:34] Raad Seraj: That sort of colonizing force, that sort of

[00:14:36] Kris Archie: yes, actively.

[00:14:38] Raad Seraj: But on the other hand, it's sort of like not engaging. It is also dangerous because it keeps your community. It keeps depriving your community, right? For example, realm of technology, right? We can now talk about how technology is being applied, but technology itself can be an enabler of wealth of prosperity of of, you know, skills and so on.

[00:15:03] Raad Seraj: How do we do that? And so the question here is do we need to heal first? Or is it a sort of do we enable the leaders within the community for us who can see the frontier?

[00:15:12] Kris Archie: Oh my gosh, you know, I think it's got to be both and, you know, I think that, that there will, there will, there's a tension there, but I think that rather than seeing it as something to I think what's really helpful and it's one of the things I find myself deeply committed to is like how to support people to see it as a, as a, that, that tension and conflict is a creative catalyst and it's a necessary space to enter into.

[00:15:43] Kris Archie: We deepen relationships and we enter into conflict. We can be more creative when we, when we surface conflict, we actually see more of what matters if we can. make conflict visible. And I think leaders are required to have skill sets to go into those spaces. And for some people, that means putting your leadership on the line.

[00:16:06] Kris Archie: And for others, they're like, no, thank you. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to follow the rules. I want to do the things. I don't want people to not like me, you know, so I'm just going to kind of do the things. And, and so I think that You know, there are these kind of skill sets that are required, but then also healing work.

[00:16:25] Kris Archie: I mean, there's nothing for me in my experience, nothing has required me to do the depth of healing that I've been doing than being in a leadership position. In my organization and in the sector, because they're what comes with leadership is all of this. First of all, this dominant narrative about what leaders look like and sound like and how they behave and all these norms.

[00:16:52] Kris Archie: And then there is. You know, all of this ego stuff that comes up for me being like this you know, rebellious, you know, green haired pierced faced, you know, little shit. You know, I, I hated the man. I hated the notion of power of institutions to then be like, Oh, I'm the man. Like I'm the leader. What does that mean?

[00:17:19] Kris Archie: What is my relationship to power? You know, all of these things I had to really deep, deepen into and explore. And then, you know, the beauty of the healing work in this time has been, Oh, this is a, this is a deep invitation to, to rethink what power and authority look like for me as a Sequoia person, like what is my land and my teachings tell me about how I show up and behave and what, what is expected of me. And and so I think in some ways, you know, watching leaders can also be a catalyst for people to notice for themselves their own shadows. And, and, and yeah, and so just speaking for myself, the leadership roles that I've been in have, have kind of pushed me into these spaces of deeper healing that I'm really thankful for, even though they've been deeply unsettling.

[00:18:13] Kris Archie: They're not always fun but they're necessary, and I feel like really glad for

[00:18:17] Raad Seraj: Yeah, and as you're talking, also a friend of mine told me about this idea and I'm not sure which Native American indigenous community this came from, but the idea of the twisted hair, right? People who are actually people who leave the community, but then come back with the knowledge from the outside, and they're the whole their role is to bring back ideas, bring back other ways of saying so that the community can be enabled in different ways, because you know, I think fear.

[00:18:47] Raad Seraj: Fear has a weird way of sort of like, collapsing the vision of the future, right? And, and to your point, like, why should we try harder? Because every time we tried, we got fucked. So why should we not choose a safer route? Absolutely understandable, right? And there's, I think, particularly maybe a, a really cool place that bridge builders like yourself.

[00:19:06] Raad Seraj: Like myself, we have by notion of being, having been on the outside, whether it's been imposed on you by the world, but it's been imposed on you by others, your own community. If you can maintain that center, like you said, you have in time, you see that as a strength. You see like, Oh, I, my community is not seeing what I'm seeing.

[00:19:28] Raad Seraj: Now, how do I enable that? And the second thing to your point, I think power is an emergent property of all human society. You cannot pretend that power does not emerge. It nothing exists in a vacuum. So the question is, how do we enable good leaders with a sense of self awareness that understand that power can play out in bad ways and good.

[00:19:47] Kris Archie: Mm hmm. Oh, I mean, the other, the other thing there is to actually you know, interrogate the notion of good and bad, right? It's like, it's like, can we actually be present to what is? And think that, that for me as a leader, one of my deepest commitments to the folks I work alongside is that I want to create conditions for their wellness, their connection to family and community, and in doing so, Provide opportunity for them to show up more fully as who they are with all of the gifts that they have that come from their lineages that come from their experiences in life to then activate in service to our people.

[00:20:33] Kris Archie: And, and, and again, that is, you know, that goes back to our teachings of self resilience. First know yourself, take care, know how to dress and clothe and feed yourself and find the water. And then you do that for others. You support them to know the landscape and to do those things for themselves. And then you contribute to the bigger whole.

[00:20:57] Kris Archie: And I think that the, the best projects, the best work that I get to be a part of, the things that I find myself most proud of are the places where I get to bear witness to folks showing up in their leadership from a position of strength and authority and clarity that only comes when we have The space to, to, to explore what that feels like in our body and like, where does it exist?

[00:21:22] Kris Archie: And how do I activate that? And, you know, the capitalist kind of norms in workspaces don't enable those structures. They are not interested in inviting. Someone's kind of personal sense of power to come to the forefront because capitalism relies on a notion of power that is held by few, that, that, that governs the many and that looks and feels and behaves a really particular way, right?

[00:21:53] Kris Archie: So folks like me or others, other like black leaders and racialized leaders and others who are stepping up with the sense of no, no, I know who I am. I have a sense of power. That means that I don't care about all that other noise out there. That is a deeply disturbing and I think a very dangerous thing for folks who are in the relationship to the dominant norm.

[00:22:15] Kris Archie: of leadership to bear witness to. Because it shakes the very core and foundation of what they think is real, and what they think is necessary. I don't, I don't, I don't believe that you can bear witness to folks who have a sense of authority and power and, and integrity, and not come away being like, wait a second We can do that.

[00:22:37] Kris Archie: I can behave like that. We can create spaces like that. No one told me. How come I'm not doing that? You know, so I think those kind of rule breakers, the edge walkers, the bridge builders I feel really fortunate to be in a community of folks who are like, no, no we're going to show up with all of who we are.

[00:22:56] Kris Archie: And it's, and, and it's a modeling, but I only am doing it because I witnessed other people do it, right? I watched other people, other leaders in my community, men and women in my community. I've witnessed black and brown women in my community, you know, my global community behave into these ways where I was like, Oh, damn, that's possible.

[00:23:16] Kris Archie: Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and do that too. You know, I'm gonna step into

[00:23:20] Raad Seraj: Which is, you know, it's also it's almost it's one of those things where, again, when you talk about leadership, you're talking about what does it, what does, what do leaders look like in a realm of like, where you have to personify and productize everything? We're like, Oh, this is what a fucking leader looks like.

[00:23:33] Raad Seraj: Their reader reads these 10 books. Shut up. You know, you, you don't look like you read it all. And it's sort of like, The question is, What are you leading for? What are you leading with? And who are you leading for? That's really ultimately the question here. And so to your point, it's it's I think leadership is almost like a way to interrogate where you are all the time.

[00:23:55] Raad Seraj: And are you imposing yourself? And let's be honest, I think people do want to be led sometimes because we are looking to be inspired, but it doesn't have to be top down. It can be bottom up. It can be also horizontal. It could be flat. So on, right? Yeah.

[00:24:10] Kris Archie: I want to share with you this book. So this is a book by a dear friend of mine called, Say the Quiet Part Out Loud. Liberate Your Inner Changemaker. It's written by a woman named Bina Patel. Dear friend. I often say I have, you know, I have a like 1 800 called Bina. Kind of stored in my phone because she just is such a light bringer and a, um, a brilliant mind and a dear friend and a sister in this work.

[00:24:36] Kris Archie: I met her back in 2016 and she radicalized my understanding of power. And And, and actually provided an invitation for you know, you can quit holding your punches, you can quit pulling your punches like you can, you can actually throw the punches, but we can be wise about how and when and with whom.

[00:24:56] Kris Archie: And so one of the things that she has said a lot is that the response to fear is not courage. And that, that really sticks with me quite a lot that, you know, when, when folks have clarity of purpose, there is kind of like, uh, an undeniable certainty that they're headed in a direction, right? If I got purpose, I'm headed that way.

[00:25:18] Kris Archie: Nothing's going to kind of get in the way. If I have to rely on courage, which is a muscle that must be built. And if I have to rely on courage, which looks different for black, indigenous and Brown folks, our courage as a result of having to find ways to exist in a world that is trying to actively kill us you know, I think that it becomes very.

[00:25:40] Kris Archie: Quick to burn us out and to deflate us and to de energize us. But if I have purpose, then that's that's future oriented, you know, that is grounded. That has some requires some creativity. It requires some possibility, some dreaming into the future. And it also is a requirement of Oh, I don't do this alone.

[00:26:01] Kris Archie: There isn't a singular purpose that I hold. It's what is the like bigger purpose that I'm here in support of my community and my nation of, of my son, of the generations who come after me. So yeah, I just want to, want to offer that piece up.

[00:26:15] Raad Seraj: That's brilliant. So the response to fear is not courage. It's purpose. That's, that's brilliant. I love that because you're right. I think, you know, courage is almost a byproduct. You don't act courageous. I think you just have a sense of what's at stake. And by, by virtue of that, you, you end up being courageous because you're like, I'm doing, I know what I'm doing this for.

[00:26:38] Raad Seraj: And in a world that I, I do feel a lot of people, there's an existential crisis what is all this fucking thing for? We now live in a place of perpetual war, perpetual conflict, disinformation, fragmentation, depression, all this stuff. These are all things that are. Purposefully, or maybe by virtue of just being at the peak of our civilization where everything starts to change, transition, or crumble, depends on what perspective you're coming from, it's harder to find purpose, harder to find a sense of agency, and the healing may perhaps, again, comes from going back to basics.

[00:27:15] Raad Seraj: Where do you come from? Who are you with?

[00:27:17] Kris Archie: Absolutely. Absolutely. Who's with you? Who are you with? Who, who are you in service to? And, and how do you show up in service to those folks when they're not in the room?

[00:27:29] Kris Archie: How do you make it visible that I'm here for these people, whether they're in this room or not even if they're not my people, right?

[00:27:36] Kris Archie: And I think that there's, that is, I think, in the, in this kind of multi crisis world, this kind of post apocalyptic reality that we are situated in, I feel deeply deeply grateful to have a sense of purpose. Because it means that when, when things are happening in the world that are devastating and feel hopeless I know where to turn to.

[00:28:07] Kris Archie: I know where to put my energy. I know where to put my focus. And it's not, it's not always going to be on the other side of the world. It's going to be with, with my healing, with my family, with my nibblings, with the people in my extended community. I feel really fortunate to have that. Because it, it feels I have a sense of clarity and a sense of fulfillment in being present in those ways.

[00:28:34] Kris Archie: It helps bring perspective to like, where can I have. Impact. Where can I be helpful? Where can I bring attention and care and healing to where I have responsibility and trust deeply that me doing what I can in the space that I can with the relationships that I have, that that matters. And I think there are lots of folks who are trying to make sense of a future with this, with the climate crisis and trying to make sense of a future with what's happening in Palestine and in Gaza.

[00:29:09] Kris Archie: And they can't because the, the ways in which our society is set up, the ways in which we live today, it means so many folks are kind of, you know, disrupted from lands and disrupted from language and disrupted from their own communities. It can feel hard to, to feel like, Oh, I am actually doing something that matters here.

[00:29:30] Kris Archie: I do feel really thankful about being able to bear witness to the the deep organizing that is so love filled and creative and artistic that's happening. And I just love witnessing the kind of. The depths of solidarity and movement building that's happening right now. I think that that's something that gives me hope for the future.

[00:29:53] Kris Archie: You know, and so right now we live in a small city outside of Vancouver. And for years, I've been really just thinking about things like how do I get out of the city? and get back to my home. Can I, can I cross the bodies of water from here to my territory if roads don't exist? In the case of an earthquake, who are the people that That I'll be like, here's our extra like safety backpacks.

[00:30:22] Kris Archie: Here you go. You know, who, who do I call on to, to talk to you about you know, seeds and food, you know? And then I'm also like, Oh, and you know, I, I have a vehicle. And I'm getting some new tattoos and I'm grabbing coffee from the place on the, around the corner like we have to be willing to live in a world that accepts multiple truths like the world is ending.

[00:30:44] Kris Archie: It always has been like in the same way that I'm always dying, you know, and, and I'm gonna live my life, but be really oriented to like, where's my purpose? Where do I draw? My sense of accountability and and commitment to

[00:30:59] Raad Seraj: brilliantly said, I think, you know, this, this whole thing about both accepting and mortality, like I'm just a person I'm going to be worm food or stardust one day, whatever, you know, whatever your orientation is. But with that said, this present moment with my people, with my community, with our struggles and our stories is important.

[00:31:19] Raad Seraj: Even though I'm going to die, you know, and as brilliant said, I want to, I want to transition a little bit here and I think a little to the personal because the story that hopefully you're about to share really speaks to, you know, your worldview, which is, you know, you've been exposed to psychedelics from a very early age, right?

[00:31:40] Raad Seraj: The first thing we took LSD was at 14, but I, you know, the one, the way you mentioned to me was one of the most. Important, meaningful experiences with psychedelics early on was with many of the closest people to people in your family. Like you talked about one story where you ate mushrooms for the first time with your cousin in a bedroom, right?

[00:32:01] Raad Seraj: And it was a night after she had eaten mushrooms. Can you speak to me a little bit about why, what was it about that experience that makes, made it the most meaningful experience with psychedelics? 

[00:32:11] Kris Archie: I mean, I, I don't entirely understand where we had the wisdom to, to agree that we were going to try. Mushrooms, but that we were only going to do it if, if one of us did it and the other one would, would kind of watch take care of the other. And then, and you know, my sister our, our first cousins back home are our siblings.

[00:32:37] Kris Archie: And so my sister, she was older than me. So it was like obviously you're going to do it first. first. You're, you're older than me and so then I had to watch. And then, and then she had just what appeared to me from the outside, a very fun time. And then the next night I did it and I just really remember that, you know, I remembered having moments of having these like big breaths and feeling like, you know, I was like breathing the entire room in.

[00:33:02] Kris Archie: And I just remembered that she was beside me kind of just with her hands on, on my back and was like, I'm here like I'm with you. And I, I felt like looking back on that and when I reflect on all the other times that I did That I did psychedelics I was, I was doing them alongside people who are also too young to be doing psychedelics.

[00:33:25] Kris Archie: I was, but I was doing it with folks that I was in deep relationship with. And I think that is in part, a large part of why my experiences have been predominantly positive. Like ones with a lot of learning and growth and sense making connected to them. And it's not lost on me that in the world that we're in, there's more and more relationship or understanding of, of.

[00:33:50] Kris Archie: of plant medicines as being our kin. Plant medicines as being part of the kind of human existence on this planet. That we see them as family, as teachers, as as ways to come, ways of being in ceremony. It makes sense to me that even from the very beginning of, of my own psychedelics use, it was like that.

[00:34:11] Kris Archie: A lot of finding ways to bring some beauty and ceremony into those moments, but also always with, always with people who I deeply trust it. And in fact, the only time that I had a, an awful mushroom experience was in an environment where I was definitely not, it would not have been a safe space. And you know, I got like super sick.

[00:34:36] Kris Archie: My other sister like loves to remind me about how she had to take care of me and clean me up. But I think that that to me was a massive lesson very early on of oh, there's, there's places and spaces where this is not wise. And there are places that are safer and wiser for me to be in. And again, really fortunate to have had that experience at a young age.

[00:34:59] Kris Archie: And, and therefore also be able to share that with friends and with others. To be like, you know, like maybe think differently about how and when you're using it. Using different kinds of drugs. Yeah. Being in relationship, giving lots of thinking to kind of the setting of places, my own mindset I think have been really crucial

[00:35:19] Raad Seraj: Do you feel,

[00:35:20] Kris Archie: experiences.

[00:35:21] Raad Seraj: you know, I think of as, as I'm also learning about how, you know, indigenous communities where some of these medicines were indigenous, you know, their exposure is one thing, but also stories of different communities across the world, you know, through, you know, Worry travelers or through people who've gone out and, you know, twisted hairs who've gone out and brought these medicines home.

[00:35:45] Raad Seraj: Is there, is there a, do you think in your own community, in the communities that you're exposed to, do you think there's a role for medicines that you grew up with versus medicines that were brought to you? Medicines that you have to go out and find? Is it seen differently? Should it be seen differently?

[00:36:02] Kris Archie: Hmm. I think that's a really great question, but I don't know that I've got the best wisdom on it because I don't know much about, about the specific varieties of psychedelic mushrooms that grow in my region, for example. I have no clue. I just use whatever the dude from out of town brought and sold, you know?

[00:36:21] Kris Archie: That's what you did. You hung out around the community hall and someone showed up and they had LSD or mushrooms and you were like, okay, I'm going to try these things. I do feel like the, the wisdom that I've gained from bearing witness to others and hearing from others, especially, you know, good humans like Kim Haxton that being able to be in a relationship to the land where the medicine comes from, I think is incredibly powerful.

[00:36:47] Kris Archie: I think if that's, if that's something that's available to you, I think that that is that's a fucking gift. But I also know. Indigenous peoples, we were travelers our own, my own people, Sequitn, we're the spread out people. Like our territory is a large territory. We kind of, we wandered about, you know?

[00:37:05] Kris Archie: And so I think we always had relationships of trade and commerce over vast, vast, vast, vast, You know, territories in the world. So I think there is something as well about the times where medicine shows up for you. It may not be in the lands where that medicine is cultivated and grown and intended to and has been stewarded, you know, but if you're, you're fortunate enough to be in a relationship with someone who has been, you know, mentored and educated or apprenticed with those.

[00:37:41] Kris Archie: Indigenous peoples and those knowledges. That's such a beautiful gift. And I think, you know, I hope that the psychedelics community recognizes that and actually also knows that the, the best likelihood, the best pathway for legalization, the best pathway for Deepening our collective understanding and collective consciousness is going to come by safeguarding Indigenous Peoples lands and their rights and their, their access to their medicines.

[00:38:13] Kris Archie: That's the thing that is most key in all of it. And so where I've seen, I've seen medicines show up and do beautiful work, transformative work, in communities with folks who have PTSD, with folks who have deep, deep depression you know, it's, it's been the places where there's a relationship to, to land and language in place and that there's something beautiful that's happening there that I think is being catalyzed because of the relationship to place that doesn't happen if you're like.

[00:38:45] Kris Archie: You know, just being unthinking

[00:38:48] Raad Seraj: good point. 

[00:38:49] Kris Archie: And

[00:38:49] Raad Seraj: I also think about you know, there's, there's the baselining that you have to do, right? For example, if you're traumatized, if you're hurting, if you're depressed, you cannot think about flying. You have to come first to ground from being underground to ground, right?

[00:39:03] Raad Seraj: Come to baseline, come to be a place where you, you have a sense of self. These trauma takes away your sense of agency. So medicines can come to that. But I think beyond that, it is very hard to soar to fly to find purpose to find agency without that container, without a container that has a sense again, like you're saying, a sense of place, a sense of history, a sense of this, this sort of a legacy that this container has been built through time.

[00:39:32] Raad Seraj: Through experience. It's, it's been, it's been created. It's emerged naturally through time. And I think this is where a lot of the world, a lot of the psychedelic world, a lot of the people find themselves in precarious places because you don't, you don't have fucking mushrooms, but then

[00:39:50] Kris Archie: know, yeah. And you know, there's, there's this, there's, I think the biggest business actually won't be in the distribution of psychedelics. It's going to be in the integration. It's going to be in sense making. Because folks who do not come from lineages, folks who do not have a sense of purpose and place and language and land, they are going to struggle to, I believe, to do the integration necessary to do healing and evolutionary work.

[00:40:21] Kris Archie: You know, I think for, Yeah, I just think that's the thing. I think that the I mean, I feel kind of shitty saying it, but I

[00:40:28] I mean, even when I think about Oh what are the gifts that I have to offer in in this sector? That's the thing that I think about. I'm like, oh, I'm pretty blessed with the ability to help people make sense of shit and, and that's an easy thing for me because I have this grounding, you know, is there a gift or an offering that I can have, you know, and support others to move through? Yeah, probably there's like different ways I can show up.

[00:40:54] Kris Archie: But when I look broadly at folks who are doing this work and. the places where I find myself being like, Ooh, like I'm a little worried for folks. It's in the integration work. And I don't believe that Western science and, and, and kind of Western psychologies and therapies are the answer to integration.

[00:41:15] Kris Archie: Because if those things are the answers, we wouldn't be trying to figure this stuff out now. You know, so I think that Even those practices are evolving and I'm very thankful and glad for that. You know, we're seeing an increase in recognition of the power of somatic healing practices, et cetera. But I do think that you know, the sense making work is really important and I think that it is often undervalued and it's

[00:41:36] Raad Seraj: I think you know, part of the reason why integration is difficult, but also not often focused on in the, in the realm of like consumerism is because it's, it's, it's everyday. It's constant. It's work. You know, it's not just you can't be a bliss junkie and enjoy integration.

[00:41:53] Raad Seraj: Bliss junkie is about finding those quick, you know, it's, and sort of like, it's, there's the other part of it, which is like, Oh, here, eat these mushrooms. So you can alleviate your anxiety. So you can go back to the shit job that you hate working with the people you don't like. It's not about that. Right?

[00:42:09] Raad Seraj: It's 

[00:42:09] Kris Archie: Yeah, that is like a medication for numbing, right? That's like this is a solution to get through the days versus this is a medicine

[00:42:17] Raad Seraj: and the point maybe is that you don't need the medicine of another day in the sense that you will now have a community that is the medicine. I think that's where we're trying to get into the sort of sense of connection with nature with others and so on. You know, we've touched a lot on leadership, but in the last part of the podcast Chris, I want to talk a little bit about, you know, what is the circle doing?

[00:42:35] Raad Seraj: And I think what, what I really love about what you folks are building and the the agenda here is competency building capacity building, but ultimately you talk a lot about really you know, you talk about two things. One is you know, dialogue and civic engagement. But the second thing is redistribution of wealth, but not in the sort of like using political power, but actually convincing those with money to give and enable others who don't have the means. I wanna hear a little about what that mission is and what that

[00:43:09] Kris Archie: in you know Yeah, I mean so the work of the circle is really to support what we call settler philanthropy, which is philanthropy that's been built on the lens and backs of indigenous peoples. That we, we work to support settler philanthropy with technical and relational skill building in order to influence a redistribution of wealth back to where it belongs.

[00:43:35] Kris Archie: And so in doing so, our invitation to funders, to family foundations, to others is not. Let us help you find an organization that fits your mission and mandate and purpose. It is let us help you find an indigenous organization who can you know, make best use of those dollars for the actualization of their rights and for the desires that they have in community, which you may never understand.

[00:44:03] Kris Archie: Which context and cultural competency you may never understand the depths of because they're not of those places. But you can trust in the wisdom of these ancient places and people and communities to know what's best for themselves. And to mobilize the dollars and to step out of the way and let people do their good work.

[00:44:24] Kris Archie: So redistribution of wealth. Is also about acknowledging that actually Indigenous peoples globally have a relationship to wealth redistribution practices and laws and teachings that that that are so well understood and that the settler philanthropic sector could actually learn a lot from what does true wealth and abundance mean and how do we conceptualize it so that it's actually about being in a quality of relationship and not transaction.

[00:44:57] Kris Archie: And yeah, so I feel really glad to be in that,

[00:45:00] Raad Seraj: what is your hope and aspiration for this circle's agenda? And I mean both from a personal level, but also what do you hope to achieve with the circle? Mm.

[00:45:09] Kris Archie: I hope that the circle continues to build a, a member network that, that sees that there's so much possibility for how redistribution of wealth can happen. That folks continue to be like more and more creative about how to transfer power and decision making and wealth to indigenous peoples and communities for their.

[00:45:28] Kris Archie: For their solutions, for their innovations for their ventures, whatever those ventures may be. And then the other piece is what I hope for the settler philanthropic sector is I hope that they recognize that we're in a moment in the world whereby they could be making history. If they choose to behave differently and part of that behaving differently is coming to account for how their wealth was built and where it actually belongs, you know, whose land whose backs is it built on and how do you actually get that wealth back

[00:46:02] Raad Seraj: I mean, on one hand you can see that a conversation like this. If you're not in the right room, not using the right tone, the right language could be very, let's just say, polarizing or antagonizing. Do you feel like you, from your perspective being the bridge builder, being the twisted hair, being the sort of the, the outsider rebellious person who is now part of, for the lack of a better word, the establishment in your, in your being the man in your own words, do you feel like that you have a special vantage point?

[00:46:32] Raad Seraj: And I asked that particularly as we sort of reached the last few minutes, what can emerging leaders, what can other people in your community learn from you? What do you advise them? What do you advise other, you know, people? Outsiders, quote unquote, who want to engage what, you know, what special vantage point can you offer them? It's a very convoluted question. I know.

[00:46:56] Kris Archie: I think, you know, I think, I think what, what matters or at least what has worked for me is that that I worked really hard to cultivate a daily practice for reflection and sense making and discernment. And I think that that is really essential like understanding, understanding oneself, and being deeply committed to Healing traumas and to maintaining a sense of hope and optimism for the future is not easy work, but it's needed in the world that we're in the other thing is that for those folks who have a who have the privilege of of unbroken or rebuilding connection to their homelands and their territories into their language into their communities.

[00:47:41] Kris Archie: Recognize those not as just places for you to learn and take from, but as places where you can build your accountabilities and and demonstrate your commitment to making this world a different place. And then the, the other piece is just that I think for folks in this, in this particular community who have, who are engaged in the psychedelics community, I think, you know, It becomes really essential that folks understand Indigenous rights and how it is that they can be, you know, allies in enabling the assertion of Indigenous rights as this movement towards psychedelic legalization

[00:48:22] Raad Seraj: just want to say that this is such an immensely enjoyable conversation. I'm so grateful to you for, you know, being in my life for being a friend, but also sharing such crazy wisdom with us. You know, for me, like it's, it's really amazing to know people who are both rebellious in nature.

[00:48:37] Raad Seraj: Both have a deep sense of community and, you know, understanding where they fit in the world. So thank you.

[00:48:43] Kris Archie: Thank you for having me. This was delightful. I feel like we could spend hours talking and I'm glad that we get to.