Raad Seraj: Today, my guest is Sean Shaunt Raffi, who is an Armenian music curator, DJ musician, and producer based in Toronto. Sean is the founder of some of Toronto's most iconic community hubs for artists, including Antikka and Oud and the Fuzz. He has now turned his attention to his newest venture, Tapestry, which functions as a music venue in the heart of Toronto's Kensington market. Shaunt has dedicated himself to simultaneously developing his own artistry, while also providing space for others to shine and grow. He has always placed a huge focus on highlighting Armenian and SWANA culture in everything that he touches. 

Raad Seraj: Shaunt, thank you for being here.

Shaunt Raffi: It's an absolute pleasure, man. Happy to be here.

Raad Seraj: Okay, so I figured we started the most important thing,that I can think of right now. I mean, there's many things to discuss, but [00:01:00] like the thing that comes top of mind that I'm really excited to speak to you about is what is your favorite system of a down track?

Shaunt Raffi: Oh, man. I knew this was coming. you know, it's crazy. I was just actually today listening to a podcast with Serj the singer, with

Raad Seraj: Oh yeah, that one. I still have it. Yeah. I have it in my

Shaunt Raffi: yeah. Yeah, so he just wrote a new book. So they, you know, they were going through the thick of it, you know? and I have so many incredible memories attached to so many System of a Down songs.

Shaunt Raffi: you know, I probably have to go with Aerials or Chop Suey as my like top favorites, but you know, that band just means so much to me, man. They're amazing.

Raad Seraj: You know, it's so amazing to be able to talk on the podcast about somebody who loves system as much as I do. And of course you have a different kind of connection, but you know that this band, like I bought the book and I was actually thinking so far. I was already in New York last week. I'm like, fuck it.

Raad Seraj: I'll just stay a couple extra days [00:02:00] just to see Serge and his book, you know, and then shake his hand and just say like how much his music meant to me. Like I, I was like, verge of tears just thinking about that idea. Ultimately I couldn't do it, but you know, I'm reading his book and even just the first chapter, he talks about like that moment when toxicity came out, it was.

Raad Seraj: 9 11 just happened and Serge is very outspoken about his ideas and he understands that, hey, it's not just like good guys, bad guys, you know, like all the darkies are bad guys and shit like that. He understands American imperialism, but this caused such a huge rift with his bandmates who were kind of scared about what was going to happen,but there's all these things that I want to talk to you about.

Raad Seraj: But you do. Tell me, like, why is System of a Down such a national treasure for Armenians, Armenian diaspora, Armenian culture, but also for you and your brother personally?

Shaunt Raffi: Yeah, man, honestly, there's so much I could say about this. Ultimately, I [00:03:00] think, System of a Down, represents, being able to see ourselves as Armenians, you know, represented in sort of that like mainstream context, right? Having people that like, look like us, that sound like us that grew up like us be able to go past just our stereotypes.

Shaunt Raffi: our little bubble, you know, of the Armenian community and, you know, still maintain their sense of, culture, still maintain, that, that fight for, justice and that activism, but be able to just, you know, Cross so many boundaries and reach such a large audience. so inspiring. you know, you just, you don't see a lot of Armenians being represented in that context.

Shaunt Raffi: to have a band like System of a Down, who was able to accomplish that to me is absolutely incredible. I first saw and met System of a Down when I was like 10 years old [00:04:00] at, in Toronto, at the Molson Amphitheater. I had some family friends who like knew the band. They were able to take me to the show, take me backstage, meet the band.

Shaunt Raffi: I got to watch the show from

Raad Seraj: hell, amazing.

Shaunt Raffi: It was, you know, one of the most epic experiences of my life. I think that really Changed me and the trajectory of my life for sure. and, yeah, they just really, they really mean a lot. And, when they played,their show in Armenia, for the 100th anniversary of the genocide.

Shaunt Raffi: That performance was special on a lot of levels, but one of the things that was really cool about it is that we always felt that their music was familiar, and different than you know, a lot of the rock music and metal music that you hear out there. But what they did during that show was really bring to the forefront.

Shaunt Raffi: The Armenian influence of their music, which had been like very subtle, you know, but [00:05:00] they made it a lot more obvious in that performance. And so there was just like certain moments where they would like really lean into some of those Armenian riffs, which were directly like sampled from like folk music that we grew up listening to.

Shaunt Raffi: And you were just like, Holy shit, you know? And, Yeah, it was just crazy because then you see metalheads all over the fucking world rocking out to that music, you know, and it's sampled from a fucking folk song that I grew up listening to, you know. so yeah, shit like that was just,really cool, to discover about that band and it just added this like other layer of why they're so important and so iconic.

Raad Seraj: Man, you know, even though I'm not Armenian, I think there's so much of what you said I resonate with so strongly. you know, growing up, you didn't see four brown guys that are so hairy at the same time that looks so different that we're like [00:06:00] from Lebanon, from Iraq, you know, from like, All the diaspora people that, you know, that look different, sound different.

Raad Seraj: They played brutal heavy metal and it's still so catchy. And yet the melodies that I related to as a South Asian, right? Like a lot of the melodies, the sort of like the melancholy of, I think, South Asian or Eastern melodies, it was there coupled with this brutal. but also schizophrenic quality.

Raad Seraj: Like they, they go from like frantic to like deeply sad, deeply joyous in the same song.

Shaunt Raffi: Yeah. Yeah.

Raad Seraj: and you know, it was so empowering to see that these guys can make the music on their terms and yet be so immensely popular that to your point, white guys are dancing to, or headbanging to, or like moshing to, it was like, what the hell?

Raad Seraj: And it's like, all of a sudden it allowed guys like me to dream. It's wow, holy shit. It's like my imagination has been cracked open because I see these four guys on the stage, right?

Shaunt Raffi: No doubt.

Raad Seraj: [00:07:00] and of course the other element that I also want to touch on is I think their vocal advocacy to recognize the Armenian genocide that is still to this day goes unrecognized by the state of Turkey. parallel to what is happening right now. And then Bangladesh, as a Bangladeshi myself, we also faced a genocide in 1971. You know, three million people in nine months. A lot of people don't know this, you know, not recognized by the state of Pakistan to this day. And so again, to hear Serge and the rest of the band and Darren talking about it, it's wow, holy shit, related on so many levels.

Raad Seraj: Tell me

Shaunt Raffi: Yeah. it's,truly incredible. the fact that they were able to accomplish that level of commercial success while being so honest and vocal at the same time. you don't see that happen. It's It still blows my mind to this day that they were able to accomplish that. It's definitely, like a beacon in a lot of ways.

Shaunt Raffi: [00:08:00] It's definitely something that I try and model. I definitely think thatthe time and place that they came up played a big role in them being able to succeed in doing that. I find it very hard to replicate today in the context that we live in. But, Nonetheless, it's something to look up to and to strive for

Raad Seraj: a little bit about that. We're going to talk, you know, later about your role and your ambition to be this curator, particularly using music as a way to connect people. I wasn't like, why do you think? It'd be hard to replicate now. Don't you feel that for a band? this is the timing couldn't be better for a band like system to come back Yeah, you

Shaunt Raffi: certain respects, for sure, the timing could not be better. I think,

Shaunt Raffi: I don't know. It's hard. It's hard to put into words. Um,

Shaunt Raffi: there's obviously a [00:09:00] just a level of sensitivity that's gotten to an absurd place. I think,the honesty that System of a Down reflected through their activism and their art. is definitely necessary in, in, in today's world. but the ability I think to couple that with the same level of commercial success that they had, I think is a lot more difficult. The reason, I don't know if I can exactly put my finger on, but, it could sort of be because of just how, public, I guess, our lives have become and, especially there's a great degree of difficulty in separating your personal life from your art, people expect to group all of that together, And I think that just adds like an added layer of complexity to being able to, have your activism and your art be, accepted in a commercial sense.

Raad Seraj: know, it's a really good [00:10:00] point I think on one hand you have this infinite buffet of whatever you want to consume On other hand, it's become so boxed in so homogenized so categorized and productized right? It's like you can't be an ancestor modan is exactly it's the antithetical to that It's everything that these things are about, right?

Raad Seraj: It's like, how many genres does it cross? How many, you know, how many different styles does it mix? How many different ideas does it, you know, mix together? So I take your point. Your, I think, you know, one of the, one of the aspects that I, want to touch onwith you is again this idea of being a diaspora Armenian, what a system of a down represent, but also I think like when you first went to Armenia, you were telling me that it was the first time that you didn't have to carry this cultural burden that you have to carry for a long time, showcasing Armenian culture, and this is all in the backdrop of a genocide that still, to your point, goes unrecognized, right?

Raad Seraj: we all carry that burden. I carry it in a different way. You carry it [00:11:00] certainly. Tell me about the time that you did go back to Armenia. And what was that experience like? I think you were the first person in your family since the genocide to visit Armenia, which is, I can't even imagine what it's like.

Shaunt Raffi: Yeah. I was the first person in my family to, to live there since the genocide, to spend like an extended period of time there. And,it was an incredibly profound experience. it definitely changed the trajectory of my life. And I'm so grateful to have had that experience. what the thing that I think was the most pivotal.

Shaunt Raffi: Was the fact that growing up as an Armenian in the diaspora in Toronto, I had sort of two modes of existence. I was lucky enough to have a community center here and a school where I could go to and be Armenian within that context.and then I would leave the community center or the school. And I had this, I was, [00:12:00] you know, just living in Toronto and just trying to fit in.

Shaunt Raffi: Or just trying to be white, like it was the Armenian within the context of the community center. Pretend to be white. These were like my two modes of existence, and I didn't know any better. I didn't know any different when I went to Armenia for the first time, and I not for the first time, but when I lived there and I started to do ordinary things like walk to work, go to the grocery store, and I could do those things as an Armenian.

Shaunt Raffi: It sort of, unlocked a part of my brain where it made me realize that, being Armenian is not something about myself that I can control. It's just who I am. Whether I'm grocery shopping in Armenia or I'm grocery shopping in Toronto, I'm doing that as an Armenian because that's not something I can control, right?

Shaunt Raffi: I just have to, accept and embrace that about myself. But I had to first feel what that was like in order to be able to do that [00:13:00] outside of Armenia. I had to feel what it was like to just exist as an Armenian and not have to be it something that I had to like consciously practice. and so that opportunity to live there, unlocked that part of my brain.

Shaunt Raffi: And I was able to take that feeling with me now, wherever I go. And I'm very grateful for that. because there was a lot that within the context of the community center here, being Armenian was. something that was very much put into a box, right? It's like you do these specific things, you know, you are a part of, if you're a part of the Armenian youth organization, you go to the Armenian school and, you know, you come to the community center, you know, a certain times a week and you go to the protests and you do these things, then you're Armenian.

Shaunt Raffi: If you don't, you're not Armenian, right? And it's like, what? but I didn't know any different. I didn't know any different. And I was able to [00:14:00] understand that I can be whoever the fuck I want to be. I could do whatever I want to do and I'm still going to be Armenian, you know? so yeah, that, that was a powerful experience that I'm very grateful I had.

Raad Seraj: You know, the, I think when you're a diaspora person, whether you're Armenian or Bangladeshi, I feel like there's, it's hard to be a rebel initially as you're trying to figure out who the hell are you actually, right? Because you're like, on one hand, you know, I'm unapologetically Bangladeshi, but I'm also like, not, I don't live in the enclave.

Raad Seraj: You know, I can't relate to the people who live in the enclave, the hive. You know, to your point, it's very binary. It's you do these things. If you're not, you get out of community. You're like a heathen, right? It takes a while because, there's a lot to juggle. how did you process that sort of sense of friction between, being an Armenian on your own terms, but also, here's everything that you grew up with, you know, that says you're Armenian, but you don't really want to fit into that [00:15:00] mold.

Shaunt Raffi: I think, What really led me to understand that was compassion, and I had to have a sense of compassion for my parents and the, older members of my community for creating the environment that they did that I grew up in. And the reason why I say compassion is because these people were doing the best they could with the hand that they were dealt.

Shaunt Raffi: The people who, who run the diaspora and Armenian community centers around the world are people who were, you know, continuously displaced for generations, right? If you just take my family as an example, post genocide on my dad's side, they ended up in Turkey, in Lebanon, you know, Both of these places were difficult places to be as Armenians and then these places they themselves Experienced [00:16:00] war revolution, you know on my mom's side.

Shaunt Raffi: They ended up in Iran again. Same thing, you know war revolution for fucking generation after generation you're being displaced. you're dealing with war you're dealing with You know A deep sense of struggle, a huge lack of peace, all the while understanding the fact that the reason why you're in this position is because of a genocide that is going unnoticed on, not being talked about, you know, not being recognized,the complexity that creates in your mind is extremely difficult to cope with.

Shaunt Raffi: And so you're going to do. whatever you can to just deal with those situations and try and provide a sense of security for yourself and for your family and for your community and just keep moving forward, right? And I think when you come so close to losing something [00:17:00] that's very dear to you, right?

Shaunt Raffi: The Armenian culture was very close to just not existing. The fact that I'm here right now is a fucking miracle, you know? and when that happens, And this is something that's extremely precious, your initial instinct as a human being is to protect it at all costs, right? So here's this beautiful, precious culture that we nearly saved, right?

Shaunt Raffi: What am I going to do? I'm going to take it, I'm going to put it in a safe, do not come near it, do not touch it, do not get close. The problem is that when you do that thing that you just put in the safe is dying. You don't recognize that, right? But it's dying in there. It can't breathe. It can't exist.

Shaunt Raffi: Um,that kind of clicked in my head, right? Where I was like, I started to redefine what [00:18:00] preservation meant, right? Preservation to me no longer meant taking this thing, hiding it, protecting it, keeping it away from people. Preservationfor me was redefined as relevance. If I can make, take this thing and make it as relevant as possible, it preserves itself, right?

Shaunt Raffi: I don't have to then try so hard, you know? so then it comes down to doing the work to understanding what is relevant and why are those things relevant? And how can I then insert what I love into this so that it's protected?and, yeah, I really had to, develop a deep sense of compassion for those who weren't doing that work.

Shaunt Raffi: And, develop a sense of compassion for those who didn't understand why I was choosing to do that work.when I moved back, [00:19:00] it was really interesting because when I moved back from Armenia after having living there for two years, I started to feel a huge sense of disconnect from the Armenian community that I grew up with here.

Shaunt Raffi: And a large part of this was because now that I had this understanding of the culture that I really wanted to share with the world, I think a lot of people. we're scared about the fact that I was now putting the culture in this like vulnerable position of being out in the world. and they're like, yo, what are you doing?

Shaunt Raffi: You know, like we almost lost this thing once. Like, why are you putting it out there so freely, you know? I had developed the understanding of why I was doing that, but I also had to understand why people didn't see that. And to this day, I you know, a huge majority of the people that support me and my business, even though it's Armenian to its core are not Armenian.

Shaunt Raffi: And I understand why that's the case and I'm okay with it. I've made

Raad Seraj: Oh, There's another interesting [00:20:00] parallel here, you know and I'm curious about what you think. I'll use my example. I notice how the Bangladeshi community let's say in Toronto or that's a diaspora community is all across Orlando and how they operate versus how Bangladeshi is in Bangladesh. See their own culture and it's kind of interesting, right?

Raad Seraj: That I think Bangladeshi communities in Toronto again I'm talking with the enclaves in general on one hand It's a beautiful thing like I you know, it's such a relief that relief you're talking about when you were in Armenia I feel it when I go to Bangla town here sitting on the street just drinking a cup of tea Smoking a cigarette whatever.

Raad Seraj: It's just like whatever right? It's kind of people hanging out on the other hand It's like this culture refuses to evolve partly due to fear and partly, you know, wanting to preserve the culture, of course But then if I look at Bangladeshis back home, they're Mutating they're remixing the [00:21:00] culture.

Raad Seraj: They're like we are dreaming of something else and such an interesting parallel, right? in some ways Datums bangladeshis and bangladesh are more free Than bangladesh is here and you think they came this far to be free, you know I don't know if you saw the same thing

Shaunt Raffi: Absolutely. I mean, I definitely feel that. and to me, it's because the Armenians that most of the Armenians that live outside of Armenia are here today because of the genocide, right? They never chose to leave Armenia. The Armenians who are in present day Armenia never had to deal with that. You know what I mean?

Shaunt Raffi: They never had to deal with the fact that they were Away from their homeland, and they never had to feel the vulnerability associated with being this tiny minority within the context of, you know, a city like Toronto, you know, that's, you, there is fear there, for sure. I think the problem is [00:22:00] that a lot of what our culture.

Shaunt Raffi: or like mine is put up against in a context like Toronto is not something to be scared of. Culture is so rich. It's so deep. It's so old, you know, it's 

Raad Seraj: yeah, I'm going to put it out there. What it's going to destroy anything in its path, you know? Um,and at the end of the day, that's also, The biggest asset that I have as an Armenian is my culture, you know, my country does not have natural resources.

Shaunt Raffi: It does not have oil. It does not have natural gas. You know, that's not those aren't things about the country that I can exploit for the betterment of that country. The only thing that we have is our culture, you know, and so I need to find a way to exploit it. for, you know, exploit usually has a negative connotation.

Shaunt Raffi: I don't have a [00:23:00] choice, you know what I mean? I, this is the only thing that I have that I can use,to fight, you know, to fight for the things that I believe in. and, I think.it takes time. It takes generations to, to sort of realize the power that culture has, and to feel the confidence to put it up against everything that you see around you.

Shaunt Raffi: it's definitely a scary thing and I have a lot of, again, I have a lot of compassion for those who feel that fear.

Raad Seraj: I appreciate that perspective. And in fact, I think you helped me think about, you know, how the culture, when it forks, right? So people who stayed back and the new generation who were born without the direct, let's say, exposure to genocide, you know, it's part of the cultural fabric, of course. People talk about it, there are museums dedicated to it, but then people who have been exposed directly and then chose to move away.

Raad Seraj: And then those stories [00:24:00] being passed down to the, you know, subsequent generations and so on. I'm going to come back to this topic, because I think to your point, being Armenian is like part and parcel of everything that you do. So we'll come back to that. I want to pivot a little bit, to psychedelics.

Raad Seraj: Because I think this, the overlap of psychedelics and identity, and particularly, you know, Diaspora identity is really interesting here. Those of us constantly thinking about it. Who am I? What am I a part of? What am I trying to, you know, further embed with my work and whatever I create?let's first talk about your exposure to psychedelics.

Raad Seraj: Now, I know for a long time, you, I think you associated psychedelics with like white hippie culture. and then, you know, your first time taking LSD has been like the thing that you want to talk about and thing that you highlight as like a pivotal time or a pivotal moment. Tell me about the first time you took LSD.

Raad Seraj: Why was that so meaningful to you? and then, you know, how did your thoughts about [00:25:00] psychedelics and, you know, how has it been shaped throughout the last few years?

Shaunt Raffi: Yeah, so the first time I took LSD was at a music festival in Michigan, called Electric Forest. it was very much like a white hippie context that I did it in. But the reason why I ended up at that festival was because of a friend from Australia who I met in Armenia. So he's Armenian, born in Australia.

Shaunt Raffi: we happened to be in Armenia at the same time. We became very good friends, and he was coming to this part of the world in order to go to that festival, and it was an opportunity for me to see him post living in Armenia. And so that was really why I went, was to go see an Armenian friend, you know.

Shaunt Raffi: But, you know, in order to fully take part in the experience, I decided to take LSD for the first time. and it was beautiful. the whole festival was a very, it was a very freeing experience. I was exposed to [00:26:00] a lot of, like electronic music, which I had kind of kept at arm's length, at that festival.

Shaunt Raffi: and, you know, there were certain moments of just that. Like dancing with the utmost sense of freedom, which is, I think, a really, beautiful and important thing to experience because then that becomes part of your definition of freedom. It becomes part of what you look for,outside of that experience as what it means and how it feels to be free.

Shaunt Raffi: And, yeah, I think since then, I've definitely indulged in, in shrooms,quite a few times. and, yeah, have definitely just been more, more open, to, to consuming drugs. and psychedelics in particular, and I think just, eliminating sort of some of the, some of the fears associated with indulging, and understanding that, you [00:27:00] know, there definitely are benefits to this and, just, allowing myself to, to experience joy, just to have fun, you know, having to just be like serious all the time, you know.

Raad Seraj: think that's really important. You know, I think, fun can be healing in its own way. I think in the world of psychedelics, of course, there's serious traumas and suffering that we have to relieve ourselves from, but it doesn't have to be like serious and dark and hard work all the time. Just by simply freeing yourself and being open to whatever's out there around you, having fun and laughing can itself be quite healing.

Shaunt Raffi: absolutely.

Raad Seraj: You mentioned that psychedelics and mushrooms in particular helped you wean off weed and you had a really bad relationship to cannabis. I'm actually curious about this part because I think a lot of people I do thinkit's strange, right? On one hand, I really seriously believe consenting adults should be able to consume whatever the [00:28:00] hell they want, if it's not harming others. On the other hand, this idea that smoking cannabis is itself, you know, not addictive. It's not chemically addictive, but I feel like it can lead you to that. I'm thinking of somebody who used to smoke so much cannabis back in the university, you know, six, seven joints a day. I'd be like high all the time.

Raad Seraj: I don't think I was alive.was that like? And what was it, you know, how did your, how did mushrooms help you wean off cannabis? And how do you reflect on that time when you were smoking a lot of cannabis?

Shaunt Raffi: you know, my, my relationship with cannabis started at a time in my life, when my parents were separating and I really didn't have a lot to lean on and that became something for me to lean on and I'm grateful for it. I think just from that point forward, because, the substance entered my life.

Shaunt Raffi: when I was in a certain [00:29:00] mindset, I think it, it sort of carved that place in my life. And from that point forward, I think anytime I felt an emotion that I didn't want to feel, my solution to that was to smoke weed and get high. And, I don't think, you know, you should never be using anything to,to disregard your emotions to that degree, you know, because they're trying to tell you something.

Shaunt Raffi: It's uncomfortable to feel that emotion. there might be a reason for that, you know, and, you need to do the work associated with building the courage to feel that emotion as opposed to just getting high, you know? I thinkwhen I decided I was going to stop smoking weed, you know, and I also stopped drinking at the same time.

Shaunt Raffi: it's been, almost two years now. I guess, I wanted to find a substance that I could indulge in that I hadn't [00:30:00] developed a negative relationship with. You know, I think, you know, there's a good chance that if I, decide to smoke weed right now, I'm not gonna fall back to where I was.

Shaunt Raffi: But I think that there's just like an internal fear with indulging in with a substance that did have that place in my life. shrooms became a substance that, I felt more comfortable indulging in just because It wasn't present in my life during that time, and I didn't have that relationship with it, so I felt because I do think that it's important to indulge,life is too short to, to not, I think, it, indulging almost like separates a human from a robot to a certain degree, you know.

Shaunt Raffi: and you have to give yourself those allowances, but also learn how and when to do that, right? And, sometimes the substance itself that you're dealing with, Can be the thing [00:31:00] that allows you to build that more positive relationship. And just for where I am in my life right now, shrooms became that substance, whether or not that's going to change it very well might, you know?

Shaunt Raffi: but, that's just, it's just kind of where I'm at right now.

Raad Seraj: Totally. I, you know, it's a really important point that it's not about the drug. It's about the discernment, right? It's about what is your relationship to, because the same thing is a drug or a medicine. It depends on your relationship to it, right? Having a drink that helps you relax. It's a medicine because it helps you relax.

Raad Seraj: The moment you drink to get away from your suffering, to get away from your feelings,to hide behind other things. And of course we live in a culture that constantly reinforces certain kind of drugs over others which is in itself is like The politics of consciousness what kind of like consciousness are we trying to imbue in our culture?

Raad Seraj: it's it's a really important thing to understand Ultimately [00:32:00] psychedelics don't show you anything new. They show you what's inside you It shows you a brief door, but it's up to you to walk through that door without itand even within the psychedelic community We talked about like how many more times you did gliovasca, man You've done it 30 times, obviously you're not listening, what the hell?

Raad Seraj: You know, again, the substance itself is not addictive, but the sensations Of insight the sensations that you're doing something good is like it's it's it can be addictive You know, I'd smoke weed every now and then but I think I just do it because the movies are better and the chips Tastes better.

Raad Seraj: SoHow has your relationship, you know, it sounds like you've spent a lot of time understanding yourself. I mean you have a really What I really like about what you're saying is that you have a really well developed Sense of yourself or who you are, where our boundaries are, where you were, and how you evolved.

Raad Seraj: Tell me a little bit of how, as you've evolved, how has your relationship to your brother, Raz, evolved? You guys are obviously business partners and being siblings, I think, being business [00:33:00] partners, I'm sure there's lots of friction that comes up. Butyour relationship to your brother, to your sibling, as a mirror to your own evolution, how has that, how do you think about that?

Shaunt Raffi: So I think, you know, running business with family is always going to present difficulties. What I'm grateful for and the thing that I, sort of prioritize within the context of that relationship is, if you're going to run business with anybody, but especially family, and you're not going to be honest with each other, you're fucked, right?

Shaunt Raffi: I think what we realized very quickly is how much there had been. A lack of honesty and communication within the context of our family growing up, that, we just would avoid conflict at all costs, you know, and we could get away with it [00:34:00] because there wasn't a business on the line that we had invested everything into, right?

Shaunt Raffi: So when that entered the equation, it brought about this sense of necessity have to deal with certain things. or else your business is not going to succeed. And we just, we couldn't afford that. so for the first time in our lives, there was this added layer of necessity to have to deal with certain things that we had been avoiding for so long.

Shaunt Raffi: And this was within myself. And within the context of my relationship with my, and the two things very much, went hand in hand. And so as we continue to progress as business partners and as brothers, the thing that I always try and, prioritize and be grateful for and keep at the [00:35:00] surface is the fact that the conflict that we engage in, is simply because of the fact that we have not been honest with each other and ourselves for a very long time.

Shaunt Raffi: and either we're going to take this opportunity to engage in that honesty, or our business is going to suffer. Two options here, you know what I mean? And You know, to this day, we've been business partners for going on eight years now. To this day, there are things that come up that are a reflection of that sense of avoidance, you know.

Shaunt Raffi: And we just need to identify it, be conscious of it, and work towards solving it in a way that is positive in some way, shape, or form. And, you know, it's not perfect every day, you know, they're [00:36:00] like old habits die hard, like changing is an extremely difficult thing to do,very difficult thing to do.

Shaunt Raffi: but, you know, I'm, I've felt the growth that I've been able to experience by being on this journey. And as long as I can see progress within myself, within the business between, within my relationship with my brother, then I'll keep going. you know, as long as I see progress, I'll keep going and, so far we've experienced that.

Shaunt Raffi: Within the context of the medicine, what do you think it's, what have you been able to pullfrom medicine or insights or lessons from it that you can apply that I guess others who are contemplating getting into a business venture or something else with their siblings, what can you draw from that?

Raad Seraj: What did the medicine show you?

Shaunt Raffi: so to be honest, during the time of the biggest sort of some of the biggest leaps I've made, within my life, I wasn't [00:37:00] consuming psychedelics, but I was meditating a lot, like a lot. And there's I think a lot of parallels between the use of psychedelics and

Shaunt Raffi: Absolutely. can speak to how meditation helped me within this contextand for me, it, it had a lot to do with, you know, just again, a, you know, sitting with uncomfortable emotions, recognizing that,when you take away all of the distractions that we use to not feel the things that we don't want to feel.

Shaunt Raffi: Yeah. The other side of that is okay, you know, like

Shaunt Raffi: when you don't engage in that substance or you don't engage in that activity or you don't pick up your phone, you know, and do whatever it is that is going to distract you from that emotion. You don't want to feel when you feel it. [00:38:00] It's okay. You know, you're fine, but you need to experience that, you know, I've done like upwards of three hour silent meditations where you know, prior to that,within the span of three hours, the amount of times I would have, you know, maybe smoked a joint or checked my phone or, you know, done something to distract me from my thoughts.

Shaunt Raffi: The list is long, you know. But I gave myself that opportunity to just sit there, you know, and, again, to just realize that I was okay, you know, I was just fine. and,that, that did a lot for me. It did a lot for me. I haven't been, as frequent with my practice since then, but I think that just that period in my life, Really, there was a, a necessity to have to be as disciplined as I was.

Shaunt Raffi: and,what, yeah, the, the, what that did [00:39:00] for me for being able to, have a sense of confidence in myself and, a deep sense of belief in why I'm doing what I'm doing, why I'm, dealing with that. The stresses and the difficulty of carving my own path. if you don't understand why you're doing that, it could be, like, you're gonna give up, you know?

Shaunt Raffi: So that, that experience gave me an opportunity to really be clear as to why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Raad Seraj: Innately value your journey and your and the road ahead. The road you're on is critical trusting yourself, trusting the decision because like any act of creation involves ambiguity, risk, uncertainty, And you know, as you were talking about this, I, my feeling is that being somewhat of a creative, but I'm not embedded in the way that you are. I feel like [00:40:00] the artistic creative world, A, there's a lot of people with a lot of existential suffering, angst, lots of mental health challenges. On the other hand, people also rely on abuse, you know, substance abuse as the thing that they feel gives them the creative edge, which I don't think is true.you know, I think with meditation, things like that, of course, again, use the tool.

Raad Seraj: But don't become the tool, you know, don't let her use you. do you see, your creative community and how do they wrestle with these questions?

Shaunt Raffi: Oof, that's a, a crazy question. when we opened Tapestry, The space itself gave us the opportunity to engage in certain communities and certain styles of, of music and events that our previous two [00:41:00] locations didn't give us the opportunity to engage with. And I would say you know, mostly it's The electronic music community, which, you know, we finally kind of had a space to, to host that kind of music, which is something I had definitely wanted, the, that community,is great for business.

Shaunt Raffi: and one of the reasons for that is the people who show up are, are very loyal, and I think part of the reason for that is because. there's an opportunity to indulge right in a space, in a safe space, right? Which a lot of people need, right? like I remember when I first started smoking weed, it was like super early in my university career.

Shaunt Raffi: And again, this was a very difficult time in my life. A lot of my friends at the time were not necessarily supportive of me indulging, right? So I started hanging out with [00:42:00] people who were supportive of that, you know, who wouldn't judge me for indulging. And that was the basis of our relationship.

Shaunt Raffi: These weren't people that I really had a lot in common with. but I knew that if I spent my Friday night hanging out with them, as opposed to them, I could smoke weed. And at that point in my life, I needed to fucking smoke weed

Shaunt Raffi: And so that created this loyalty in our relationship.

Shaunt Raffi: with this particular group of friends. And I find that sometimes the substance,the ability to use substance in a safe space creates this loyalty with a lot of people in the electronic music community who will show up because they know that if they come to that experience in that event, as opposed to going to like the cocktail bar down the street, You know, if they show up on Mali at the cocktail bar down the street, people are going to look at them like what the fuck's wrong with this person, you know what I mean?

Shaunt Raffi: But if they go to that rave, people are going to, no one's going to [00:43:00] judge them, right? Which is a beautiful thing, you know? But again, I think that's a, it's a very slippery slope, right? and,that can turn very toxic very quickly. and it's, it sucks because there are There's a lot of people that are making money off of that loyalty that's based on indulgence, right?

Shaunt Raffi: And, that's also driving the music industry and the type of music that's being released and the type of music that's generating income and money. And, the use of substance is all, it's all tied into, I mean, it always has been, like, this is nothing new. You know what I mean? This is definitely, but, I guess that's just something that, I've become more conscious of, and recognizing that, I guess, like you said, it's the use of substance, of any substance, is not an integral part of the creative process, and, It does [00:44:00] have a role and it has always had a role.

Shaunt Raffi: Some of the music that we hold very near and dear to our heart, some of the artists that we hold very near and dear to our heart, are people who have indulged to sometimes, you know, a very toxic extent. but, yeah, again, there's reasons for that. And I think,being, being compassionate, About the places that people are in and the ways in which they're coping is extremely important.

Shaunt Raffi: but I think, we should never stop striving for better.

Raad Seraj: I think the most important thing about what you said is, you know, creating a safe space that is free of judgment. You wanna consume, you wanna indulge, totally fine. Know that it comes with responsibility so it does not harm others around you and as all your stuff because we want to be responsible for each other.

Raad Seraj: But also if you don't consume at all, that's also cool, you know It doesn't mean that you're straight edge and you're like you have your head up your ass or anything like that It's nothing like that, you know And so so I think you know as [00:45:00] curators of art and culture and community we have that responsibility Like how do you imbue?

Raad Seraj: Into the walls into the space into the bar into the music all of these values that allow people to come together with you know Sharing joy joyous moments without judgment and also if you want to get really fucking high do it This is the place to be because you're around people who will keep you safe, you know People are gonna get high no matter fucking what and this is important to us As is a huge civilization the first fucking cape paintings Who the hell knows?

Raad Seraj: Maybe it was carbon monoxide because the fucking fire went down in a, you know, cave, and all the oxygen was tapped out. Who knows? We've always gone high, right? So how do we do it safely, without judgment, without shame? So much fucking shame. let me ask you this, bringing it all together, Sean, you know, you as an Armenian, Curator, creator, musician, you know, somebody who holds a community.

Raad Seraj: I, and you know, like so many [00:46:00] people, including myself are big fans of what you've created, not just Antica food and fuzz and not tapestry. It's a place that there are a lot of people go. How do you bring it all together? you know, you talked about. Wanting people to care about Armenia, Armenians, the genocide, your story, the story of people without screaming at them.

Raad Seraj: How do you get them to understand it? But again, in a way that feels natural, that, that allows people to embody it themselves without being lectured at. How does it all, what is your recipe? What is your, What is the secret to your success so far? And then, to whoever's listening, whoever wants to create spaces in Toronto, what do you have to say to them?

Raad Seraj: How can somebody go about it?

Shaunt Raffi: so I think first and foremost, that one of the things that drives me, is a quote by Nina Simone, which states,it's, [00:47:00] The duty of an artist to reflect the times in which we live. This is something that I will die by, you know? and there's so much, there's so much to unpack there, right? in order to reflect the times in which you live, that requires presence.if you are not present in, in understanding the world around you, how the hell are you going to reflect that in your work? Once you do the work to be present. Then there's going to be a natural reflection of the world that you live in and the work that you create and I Have done my best and continue to do my best to cultivate a sense of presence in my life in order to be In tune with the world around me And so whatever I create is a reflection of that.

Shaunt Raffi: I think that's incredibly importantWhen it comes to, to, to [00:48:00] the Armenian culture and reflecting that in the, in, in the work that I do, in the way that I do it with the goals that I have, it simply comes down to seeing myself as not an Armenian, but as a human being with access to Armenian culture.

Raad Seraj: I'm lucky to be a human being who has access to this culture that not a lot of people have access to. And I just think it's beautiful. I just genuinely, honestly think that it's beautiful. And I want to share it with people, right? I think through that, through sharing things that are beautiful, what you cultivate is love.

Shaunt Raffi: And when you cultivate love, you cultivate care. If I want people to care about the Armenian People need to fall in love with Armenians and they need to fall in love with the culture. So I do my best to show things about the culture that allow for people to fall in love with it, right? [00:49:00] I use this example all the time, like when the, the Notre Dame in Paris was, caught on fire, right?

Shaunt Raffi: The outpouring of support and financial aid to restore that building. was immense, right? And, you know, there's a lot of layers to this, a lot of layers to this. But ultimately, there is a sense of love from around the world, from, you know, Parisians and non Parisians for that culture.

Shaunt Raffi: And they wanted to protect it. They wanted to preserve it, you know? Um,I try and sort of do my part in, in, in cultivating that. Towards, my culture and cultures like mine who don't have that, that immediate or obvious sense of appreciation from the average person living in a city like Toronto, and mostly just due to ignorance, you know, um,the other thing [00:50:00] that I will mention for anybody who wants to engage in this type of work is, one of the things that I've had to come to terms with, To understand is a lot of what put us in the position that we're in were things that happened generationally.

Shaunt Raffi: There was generations of suffering on a multitude of different levels in a multitude of different places that put me in the position that I'm in today.I think it's incredibly important to be cognizant of that, to stop certain cycles, to break out of certain things. But to also. Just be a little bit gentle with yourself and understand you are not going to solve you know four, five, six, or God knows how many generations of struggle within the context of your

Raad Seraj: And I think that it's incredibly, shallow and ignorant to expect to see the results of your work within your [00:51:00] own lifetime. And I think that there needs to be a greater degree of selflessness when it comes to doing this type of work and understanding that.if you move the baton from here to here, your job is done.

Raad Seraj: You know what I mean? there's the, that idea of seeing the results of your work within your own lifetime, needs to be thrown out the window completely. I so agree with you on that.

Shaunt Raffi: you, you know what I mean? and it eliminates pressure a and you know, B it's you know, it also allows you to just like.

Shaunt Raffi: Be like, okay, yeah, this is my life. I'm also just going to have fun too, you know what I mean? I'm going to enjoy myself too. And you know, when I can, I'm going to dedicate myself to this. I'm, again, I'm going to move things forward in the direction that I see fit, you know, and, just make it a little bit easier for the next generation when they come [00:52:00] along.

Shaunt Raffi: You know, that's it. That's it. I don't want, I don't want anything more. I don't want anything less. and I think for anybody who is looking to engage in this type of work, for it to be their career, they really have to understand that, to be okay with that, to make peace with that. and Make sure that within all of the difficulty that comes with it, that they find moments to, to enjoy themselves and, you know, have fun.

Shaunt Raffi: to take their head out of their ass and look at things from a bigger picture and, and just be okay with it.

Raad Seraj: Amen to that, man. It's like you're both powerful, but also we are just monkeys on a giant rock hurling through the abyss, you know

Shaunt Raffi: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely.

Raad Seraj: fun man, you gotta have fun because I think you know Our ancestors suffered so we can be free and the point to be free is sometimes just be present and have fun, right? There's responsibility [00:53:00] there certainly, but we also got to be present dude. I love this so much Closing comments.

Raad Seraj: Tell us a little bit about how we can find you. what, you know, how we can find Tapestry. And then, when's the next party, man?

Shaunt Raffi: All right, man. Tapestry is located in Kensington Market, 224 Augusta. we have live music here, you know, Five to six times a week. you can follow us on Instagram tapestry underscore to stay up to date. you know, we function here as not a bar, but an event space as a venue. so if you're looking to host an event, if you have an idea for a new concept in the city, please feel free to reach out.

Shaunt Raffi: you know, we're looking for more people to collaborate with from that perspective. And, yeah, so that's definitely how the business functions personally, outside of the context of the business. I'm a DJ. You can catch me spinning, all around the city. I'm spinning at jazz fest this year.

Shaunt Raffi: I just booked that gig at June 26 at the main stage. [00:54:00] I'm super excited about that. and, I also host an event. sometimes at Tapestry, but also not always called the Tapestry Jam. This has its own Instagram account. It's tapestry underscore jam. this is an event where I invite, four musicians who have never met or played together before, to come together and do it a night of completely improvised music.

Shaunt Raffi: we've created a lot of magic, through this event. it's always a ton of fun. This happens the last Sunday of every month. again, you can follow us on Instagram. Find out where in the city it's happening. We're trying to, one of our goals is to take this event to places that don't normally host live music, and, you know, sharpen our elbows and make some room for ourselves.

Shaunt Raffi: yeah, you can stay up to date with that. And, that's, that's an event that, has a lot of, my intention for what I do tied up in it. it's one night of the month where I make very little compromise as to it. you know, why I do what I do and why I deal with the struggles of being an [00:55:00] entrepreneur.

Shaunt Raffi: because in that process, there are a lot of compromises to make, but you need to make sure that you carve out time for yourself where you're not making any compromises. And, for me that, that's the last Sunday of every month. would love to have, more people be a part of it.

Raad Seraj: Shaunt, thanks so much, man. Really appreciate it. I love everything that you're doing, the thoughtfulness behind everything that you do, and it's been a pleasure, and I am so stoked to spend more time at Tapestry and hang out together too.

Shaunt Raffi: No doubt, man. I welcome it. [00:56:00]